hi there,

based on our thread: http://www.exercisebiology.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/348/

i decided to give the heavy light approach one more run.

The difference is, that in this cycle i didn´t changed the rep ranges. i sticked to 6-8 reps one the heavy day.-on the light day i mimiced the heavy day, but with 75% off the weight.

the heavy day i did with RPE scale of9-10 so in each set i went to the last possible rep-but no failure. 2min rest between sets.

workout:2x the week. legs were not done with H/L .here i use still linear programming. so i will only list the results of the upper body days.

Ok the set up was:

Workout A

Push heavy:
bench heavy 4x6-8
shoulders dumbbels heavy 3x6-8
tric dips hammer station heavy   2x6-8

Pull Light:
Row on pulley,wide grip overhand: LIGHT 75% of the heavy day
LAt pulldown wide grip to front: light 75%
curls on cable hammer grip wide:light 75%

Workout B:

Excat the same as above,only PULL heavy and PUSH light.

here are the results:

Beginning of the cycle:                        End of the cylce:
bench: 80x7/75x7/70x8/65x7/                  bench: 85x5/80x8/80x5/75x7
dumbbell press:27,5x6/25x6/22,5x6/          dumbbell press:30x6(had to decrease sets
HS dip machine plate loaded:100x9/95x8       HS dip machine: 115x7/110x7

Row wide grip: 50x7/45x11/45x11/47,5x7     Row wide grip: 55x9/55x7/55x6/52,5x9
LAt pulldown front wide:67,5x6/62,6x6/57,5x7 lat front: played with sets NO PR!
CurL: 50x10/50x6/45x6/40x7                   curl: 55x7 (had to decreased sets)

ok the conlusion:

-I didn´t noticed a difference in performance by doing on the light day: a high rep day with much efford,or simply by reducing the weight by 75% and mimic the heavy workout again. but Psychological the light day with less weight is more comfortable.

-As Annop and Anatoly suggested, the first exercise interfered with the following. So you see after the heavy benching,or rowing, that there was not much energy left for the rest of the workout and the other exercises. (exceptions were dips)

-BTW the rowing exercise still progresses but bench stalled today. I got:85x6 (small PR) and 80x6.(weaker) so i quit it.

Further suggestions:

-Anatoly suggested specialization cycles. but i don´t think as this point of my strength that this is the only way.

-Perhaps it would be better to distribute the exercises in another way:so do horizontal pushing and pressing one day heavy and vertical pressing and pulling light. on the next session its the reverse order.

-As u see progress (especially in the last sets-why is that?) on bench and row is quite rapid. but benched crushed down in the 4th week.
So my thoughts which i suggested in the deload thread are to stick now only to 1 set in the bench also (again RPE9) and wait till fatigue dispates. nevertheless 1 set is less than 4 even if the efford is still hard.

Critic is welcome!
flow

Hi Flow,

Couple of questions:

1. how long was the cycle?
2. How was your diet?

hey!

Duration:4 weeks (in the 4th week-so this week- i got on bench the small PR (1rep) but regressed on the second set as mentioned)
The row was still going this week.

Diet: Still recomp: 2000kcals non training days. 3000training days. Weekend off-so no counting.

I would wait for another 1-2 cycles result and then getting to any conclusions

Couple of things that comes to mind:

The weight is in metrics. You are expecting to go 5kg that is around 11 lbs in 4 weeks which is bit too much for upper body for intermediate. So I would say 85 for 6 is good! You need to figure out what is a good progression goal for you.

I would take sets across than just have rep range. It is better to only worry about the weight than both weight and reps.

And heavy weights for 3-4 sets of 4-6 at 9-10 intensity is taxing, especially when you add a second exercise too. You can’t keep that going for 4-5 weeks. You should ramp up slowly. And I would have the second exercise a high rep one.

Anatoly - 27 November 2010 07:55 PM

I would wait for another 1-2 cycles result and then getting to any conclusions

sure. inpatience is bad in training;)

anoopbal - 27 November 2010 10:18 PM

Couple of things that comes to mind:

The weight is in metrics. You are expecting to go 5kg that is around 11 lbs in 4 weeks which is bit too much for upper body for intermediate. So I would say 85 for 6 is good! You need to figure out what is a good progression goal for you.

I would take sets across than just have rep range. It is better to only worry about the weight than both weight and reps.

And heavy weights for 3-4 sets of 4-6 at 9-10 intensity is taxing, especially when you add a second exercise too. You can’t keep that going for 4-5 weeks. You should ramp up slowly. And I would have the second exercise a high rep one.

thx for your input anoopbal. ah it was 6-8 reps;)

@ sets across: ok you mean a fixed range like 3x6-8 and upping only the same weight for all sets gradually, right? (like stuart mc robert describes it)
As mentioned before when doin sets across my working weight get quite light-only if i rest 5 min between sets would hinder this.

@would you propose sth like 15-20 reps for the second exercise? Also sets across and done one day heavy and one day light?

@ok i assume you think that deviding in horizontal and vertical push pull days (heavy/light one day,then the next the other way around) would still be too much? (even when the working weights are less? comparison: bench vs dumbbell shoulder press)

Ahh..my bad.

I mean 3 sets of 6 or sets of 7. And you have to start low so that you get all 6 or 7.

I would say maybe 10-15 for the second exercise.

And what is ur progression goal?

progression goal?

I always tried to progress as much as possible,but i never had a real goal in my mind. My body showed what was possible and whats not. sometimes i was surprised how good a cycle was and sometimes not.
well..

It is better to have a progression goal like 5lb in 4 weeks for bench or whatever. So use some kind of a linear periodization.

So start with 70 for 6, next week 75 for 6, next week 80 for 6 and then 85 for 6.

And when do you know if the program is working? Or what strength will make you satisfied?

Anoop is right: You made good progress. Keep it up!

I use Heavy/light too and it helps me recover while still being able to practice my form and speed. It’s a good method IMO and can be used more dynamically that you are doing now. For instance some times I am unable to lift big weight so I just do a lighter workout. Works very well to me.

Just one question that is not really related: How come you curl the same weights as you row?

anoopbal - 29 November 2010 12:19 AM

It is better to have a progression goal like 5lb in 4 weeks for bench or whatever. So use some kind of a linear periodization.

So start with 70 for 6, next week 75 for 6, next week 80 for 6 and then 85 for 6.

And when do you know if the program is working? Or what strength will make you satisfied?

hm.

i once did it that way(“intensity cylcing” in hardgainer language) but the overall programm was bad,(already needed light days) so it didn´t showed up.

I see if a programm is working if i see new Prs after my old prs have been reached again.

so if the last cyle ended with 85x6 80x8 80x6 and 75x8 and after deloading and 2 weeks i get 85x9 85x7 80x9 and 80x6 for example would be a good start in the new cycle.

Generell benching 100kgx10 would make me quite happy-but of course in a reasonably BF%level.

on the other side it would be great when the other lifts progress good too.
its lame to only see progress in 2 exercises.

so i thought of:

A. bench heavy /row heavy/curly heavy
shoulder press light /lat pulldown light/ triz light(high reps or 75%of the heavy day)

B. shoulder press heavy/pulldown heavy/tric heavy
bench light/row light/biz light.

how that this look? Anatoly also use a similar exercise spit (expect he uses isos the other day)

FullDeplex - 29 November 2010 11:41 AM

Anoop is right: You made good progress. Keep it up!

I use Heavy/light too and it helps me recover while still being able to practice my form and speed. It’s a good method IMO and can be used more dynamically that you are doing now. For instance some times I am unable to lift big weight so I just do a lighter workout. Works very well to me.

Just one question that is not really related: How come you curl the same weights as you row?

sounds goot too. my problem is,that i am more the programming guy. its difficult for me to decide cause of feeling what i should do. sometimes i feel bad and get prs. sometimes i feel fresh but stall.
the log dictates me what to do next.if the log shows overreaching cause of my numbers,i deload.

really-you are right regarding the row.

perhaps cause i row on the pulley (not chest supported) and a quite wide overhand grip rowing to the solar plexus. so less lat involvement-more traps and more rare shoulders.

flow - 29 November 2010 02:14 PM

FullDeplex - 29 November 2010 11:41 AM

Anoop is right: You made good progress. Keep it up!

I use Heavy/light too and it helps me recover while still being able to practice my form and speed. It’s a good method IMO and can be used more dynamically that you are doing now. For instance some times I am unable to lift big weight so I just do a lighter workout. Works very well to me.

Just one question that is not really related: How come you curl the same weights as you row?

sounds goot too. my problem is,that i am more the programming guy. its difficult for me to decide cause of feeling what i should do. sometimes i feel bad and get prs. sometimes i feel fresh but stall.
the log dictates me what to do next.if the log shows overreaching cause of my numbers,i deload.

really-you are right regarding the row.

perhaps cause i row on the pulley (not chest supported) and a quite wide overhand grip rowing to the solar plexus. so less lat involvement-more traps and more rare shoulders.

I use a workout log too for the same reasons, but learned to relax a bit and not follow the plan too strictly. I almost never simply go by how I feel, because I too have the same experience with the feeling bad/pr thing, although I do train with lighter weights when I feel sleepy. It is too risky injury wise in my case.

I do “measure” my explosiveness on my first lifts. If I am not able to move the weight fast enough for my taste after a serie of warm up sets (1-5 reps, 2-5 sets, moving to a heavier weight on each set, as explosive as possible) I do a lighter workout or even go home, but that only happened once. As long as one warm-up set with a higher weight (say +75% of the pr) is explosive I will train heavy that workout.

Regarding the row: How heavy can you row with a close grip? It might be you are actually rowing with your biceps and not so much with your upper back muscles. In that case you may benefit hugely for improving your form. More strength and upper back mass are yours for the takin’.

FullDeplex - 29 November 2010 09:55 PM

flow - 29 November 2010 02:14 PM

FullDeplex - 29 November 2010 11:41 AM

Anoop is right: You made good progress. Keep it up!

I use Heavy/light too and it helps me recover while still being able to practice my form and speed. It’s a good method IMO and can be used more dynamically that you are doing now. For instance some times I am unable to lift big weight so I just do a lighter workout. Works very well to me.

Just one question that is not really related: How come you curl the same weights as you row?

sounds goot too. my problem is,that i am more the programming guy. its difficult for me to decide cause of feeling what i should do. sometimes i feel bad and get prs. sometimes i feel fresh but stall.
the log dictates me what to do next.if the log shows overreaching cause of my numbers,i deload.

really-you are right regarding the row.

perhaps cause i row on the pulley (not chest supported) and a quite wide overhand grip rowing to the solar plexus. so less lat involvement-more traps and more rare shoulders.

I use a workout log too for the same reasons, but learned to relax a bit and not follow the plan too strictly. I almost never simply go by how I feel, because I too have the same experience with the feeling bad/pr thing, although I do train with lighter weights when I feel sleepy. It is too risky injury wise in my case.

I do “measure” my explosiveness on my first lifts. If I am not able to move the weight fast enough for my taste after a serie of warm up sets (1-5 reps, 2-5 sets, moving to a heavier weight on each set, as explosive as possible) I do a lighter workout or even go home, but that only happened once. As long as one warm-up set with a higher weight (say +75% of the pr) is explosive I will train heavy that workout.

Regarding the row: How heavy can you row with a close grip? It might be you are actually rowing with your biceps and not so much with your upper back muscles. In that case you may benefit hugely for improving your form. More strength and upper back mass are yours for the takin’.

thx for the reply.
with close grip? for sure more,but don´t ask me numbers-have not done close grip row for a long time but i really try to work with the upper back. should make some vids perhaps.

yup wie agree on the log.

What do u think of my split i am thinking of?

I think you are doing fine with the split. It is better to stick with one and figure out what’s the best volume and intensity for you.

It is either under training or over training. My hunch is that you are overdoing it. And I do think you progress was fine for 5 weeks of time.

Next time aim for 5lb for upper body and 10lbs for lower body increase in 4-5 weeks. If you get more, that’s great. Start of the cycle low and hit the max intensity for the last 2 weeks.