Another thread of mine-some things which are important to consider in my eyes:

We all know what Progressive overload is-increasing the demands on the body to let adaptions occur-be it more load,less rest,more reps etc.

But I think there is a blurry line between progressive overload and lets call the other side progression:

Say you start with a 4x8 and 100kg regime. You can increase reps and weight some time and end at 4x10 and 110kg.

I want to call that development, progression: With the 4x8/100 stimulus or progressive overload you were able to increase or PROGRESSE to 4x10/110.
Well now you stalled. You may need to deload if fatigue is the reason you stalled, or you need a HARDER stimulus the body is not accostumed too.
Thats what i would call progressive overload.
INCREASE the demands on the body in the direction you wish to.

There seems to be a point of diminishing returns after a amount of volume done (empirical the 24-60 reps volume) so increasing volume might not be that smart- what you do?

According zatsjorski you can change the quantitiy or quality of a stimulus-so the exercise or the parameters.

I want to stick to the second one:

So wouldn´t it make it sense that a simple progression model regarding progressive overload is aimed around “clustering”?:

Because volume seems to be limited a solution would be to maintain the volume but to make the stimulus progessivly harder via weight by clustering the reps up:

We want to maintain a rep volume for suffcient work fort hypertrophy, but ALSO to increase the % of weight when NEEDED to allow for a new stimulus stage:progressive overload.
The rest periods in each stage can be set at around 90seconds to generate additional fatigue if wished so.

So a progression model could look like:

1.stage 2x15 with 60%of 1rpm-for newbs thats enough to elict gains
2.stage 3x10 70%of 1rpm
3.stage 4x6-8 75% 1rpm
4.stage 5x4-6 80% 1rpm
5.stage 12x2-3reps … 1rpm
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IME that would be quite useful to think about.
Each stage serves as the next step for pgressvie overload.
the volume and rest periods are set goal specific to hypertrophy-bit more volume and less rest.

the main purpose is to increase the demands on the body and to avoid unnecessary programm hopping.
Via this you stay in a wished volume zone, but increase the %of 1rpm slowly if you stall on one stage.

Let me know what you think,

FloW

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I think you have brought up some very good points but I wonder if ones training goals should help determine the best progression pathway? I can see the need of making the training more load centered if the demonstration of load strength is desired. But if the training goal is maximum muscle hypertrophy perhaps other forms of progression should be considered. Their may be a desire not to expose the trainee to repetitive higher load/high volume which if used on a chronic basis could lead to orthopedic issues. Couldn’t the progression model for the hypertrophy trainee be more developed in the context of changing exercises and or changing the model of the repetition itself(adding isometrics, mixing full and partial movements etc.)and the inter-set rest?

hi near60 lifter,

do you mean progression or progressive overload?
————————————————————
Thats why i have written:
“INCREASE the demands on the body in the direction you wish to”.

So logical if strength is the desire, load increaments are most important here and expanded rest.

Regarding endurance someone can try to reduce the rest on each stage or increase the volume at short rest. Weight is the least important point.

The problem i think is, that hypertrophy is in the middle set of the two.
You may need a tension and fatigue stimulus to achieve that.

The more Stone (2008) stated, that the main stimulus in adaption is intensity (weight)so this should be considered too.

The point of exercise changing is something zatjorksi stated in his work too under qualitative changes.

Here, to be honest, I still have no answer were this should fit in. Also there are so many opinions on when its best to change exercises and why not.

And here lies a MAIN problem in my eyes:

Does a NEW stimulus is also a more DEMANDING stimulus?

I have no idea. This would fit in the discussion with exercise changes.

Whats better, whats a HARDER demand?

Changing exercises remaining parameters? How big should the change be? just food stance? Switching to dumbbells? Whats with strength transfer to pet exercises then?

Remaining exercises changing parameters? Just CHANGING (from 3x8 to 2x20) or making them more DEMANDFULL in the DIRECTION I WANT TO DEVELOP? (like 3x8 2 min rest to 5x5 2 min rest)

Equals CHANGE more demand?

We have the question of the necessary intensity to promote hypertrophy. When you look at the research coming out of McMasters, blood flow restriction training and others the load/intensity necessary for hypertrophy may have to be reevaluated. Most prior research with lower loads did not have the trainees applying maximal effort. Some of the authors believe that the applied effort to the load is more important than the load itself. It may well be that the combination of applied effort with adequate tension which can be maintained with a lesser load over a longer period of time may be a different training option for hypertrophy. This may also provide a platform for the use of more training variables to prevent adaptation and stagnation and reduces the chance of orthopedic events.

From my past reading, it appears that at around 6 weeks, training progression stalls possibly due to adapting to load/neurological pathway. Some papers state that they believe that the progressive order in resistance training is first the neurological education followed by supportive hypertrophy. Interesting though with blood flow restriction training and McMasters research, hypertrophy occurs quickly/near immediate.

Does the new stimulus have to be more demanding or just something new is a great question. Speaking with 45 years of training experience, I would say both are effective. Just change from barbell bench press to dumbbells and notice the changes. Same general movement but the pattern/joint angle change provides a new stimulus even with a lesser load. Take a load that allows around 14 full reps but instead of performing 14 regular full range reps, perform the old 21’s(7 1/2 reps from the bottom, 7 1/2 reps from the top of the movement and 7 full reps. The total reps are approximately the same but the training effect is much more demanding.  Bodybuilders have learned this over many decades of training. Since human physiology seems always at work maintaining a base platform homeostasis, any change of any type is more demanding and challenges this balance.

true points.
but how big have the changes need to be?
When e.g. stalling on 5x5 benching-will 5x5 benching on an incline will be enough to let the body force to adapt again?

Training goals would determine the changes. If your goal is to “master” the bench press and development of the pectorals is not the main training consideration,I would first consider taking a week or so off from the exercise and then try again for a few workouts. Plateau confirmed, I would look for problems at the sticking points of the movement and institute isometric oscillations and or holds at those points for a month or so and this frequently leads to a breakthrough. Changes in grip, wider or more narrow sometimes helps.

If the bench press is considered just a exercise in the training tool box to build the pectorals then I would open the box and find other (tools) exercises like the incline press etc. to train the site of interest.

sounds valid.

perhaps you have a hint for me:

You know my threads and i am a fan of the HLM system but i was never sure how to vary the cylces.

MY best set up was 3x3H 3x8M and 2x15 L-all sets across I was in a big surplus and gained good.
After this phase i wanted to intensify and shoot for one heavy set near failure-but that didn´t helped-i think the volume is too low for me with only one working set-even when done near failure.

I experimented a bit. Also with H/L like 4x6-8 decreasing sets (so near failure each set)one day and 3x10 the other.
I got brutally strong and increased my working weight for 10 pounds in 2 weeks but in week 3 i stalled and regressed extreme.
Also I was only able to do one push and one pull movement with this template-everything else was too much.

What would You do? It seems that I need a frequency for a muscle group 2x the week and H/L or HLM seems to work good for me, if the Heavy day is heavy enough. Also I need to cut down a bit regarding BF% I am at 88kg and 20% know. (cutted from 98.5kg and 23% to 83kg and 16% in 3 months one year ago-too fast)
Like Anoops article suggested its really hard to maintain the lost weight.

Hints are welcome near60lifter!
thank you

Flow, I am still not sure what your training goals are. If your primary goal is strength and you want to exhibit high intensity in all sets, 3/6/10 rep groupings, I think you have picked a very difficult journey. Making intense applied efforts with a variety of loads each workout, especially starting with the highest load first would not be my choice. If you want to be able to demonstrate the ability to lift high loads for 3 reps, 6 reps and 10, I would have each workout geared to the rep count desired. A system using a pyramid/load with a same rep count each set would be favored. Example: bench press 3 rep day with all sets having 3 reps-60kg 1st set, 80kg 2nd set, 100 3rd set, 120 4th set and perform a couple of sets near your 3 rep max. Next workout would be your 6 rep bench day and the next the 10 rep. This is just an example and you know your limits so don’t take the values literally.

From the below statement I wonder if you are applying too much effort and/or your recovery ability is not designed for the frequency of training you desire.

“I got brutally strong and increased my working weight for 10 pounds in 2 weeks but in week 3 i stalled and regressed extreme.
Also I was only able to do one push and one pull movement with this template-everything else was too much.”

Perhaps you should reduce your applied effort each workout and see how your recovery system responds. You also mention that you are attempting to reduce your body fat level. Dieting and attempting to significantly increase strength usually doesn’t work well together.

well the main goal are moderate mass gains because i really need to cut. But training wothout Prs is really boring over months.
Also my pet is the bench-so increasing my pbs in higher rep schemes would be the goal too.

What i have written regarding decreasing sets was just an experiment straight sets (same weight for all sets) are the norm in my case.

Regarding our discussion, i thought of following:

all sets across. only the last rep on the last set near failure

Heavy day: 4x6-8 3 min rest
leg press
barbell bench (wide grip to change something here)
chest supported row
Barbell Press seated
chins but with 12x2 (i only get 5)

Light day: 2x12-15 1 min rest
Lunges
dumbbel bench
bent over dumbbell row
dumbell press
pulldown to front.

Every 4th week a deload.

The heavy day would be just before the week ends were i don´t count calories. So this should take care of calories and recovery.
When i stall i think of just switching the parameters and remaining the exercises. So first it was barbell heavy and dumbbell light, then flip it around to dumbbell heavy and barbell light.
When stalling after that again, I will switch out the barbell exercises to other barbell exercises and the dumbell exercises to other dumbell exercises and start again using the heavy day for barbells.

If this will stall out too-it would be a possibility to make both days harder like i posted above-like 6x4-6 heavy and 3x8-10 light.

Via that i hope that the “varity/new stimulus” is properly apllied and the exercise are remained long enough to make gains visible.

Kind regards,
flo

Flow, if you are attempting to use research that exists on resistance training and muscle hypertrophy is your main interest I would suggest your direction in terms of training is not following the same path. You will find in much of the literature the phrase “hypertrophy training”. This training most frequently uses around 4 or more sets with a higher rep range, usually around 10.

It appears you feel that you have frequent periods where progress has stopped. Training tends to go through peaks and valleys. Patience is sometimes necessary as you ride out of the valleys.