How much protein do you really need after your workouts? It is pretty common to see folks having a protein shake after their workout. Is more protein better?
An increase in muscle mass is only possible if net protein balance stays positive.
More important, Increase in strength and muscle mass has also been observed in the long-term studies.
We know there is a dose response relationship of protein intake and protein synthesis in your muscle. Nevertheless, this hasn’t been looked at until this study.
This study used 6 trained, fasted young men ( > 4 months to 8 years).
The protocol involved 4 sets of 8-10 of leg press, leg extension and leg curl and then ingested 0, 5, 10, 20 or 40 gm of whole egg protein.
The study showed a steady increase in protein synthesis until 20 gms of protein(8.6 gms of EAA), and then a plateau as shown below.
The study showed no significant increase at 40 gms of protein and showed a significant increase in lecuine oxidation ( protein burned off because it cannot be used) at this point.
| Mon April 26, 2010 
Karky,
I guess what I was getting at is that if there is no statistical difference it is assumed that there is no difference at all.
But you’re right, this was the first study to investigate the dose response of protein post-workout. Although numerous studies have been done over the years to determine the ideal daily amount of protein required. Tarnopolsky did these years ago and more recently Phillips SM and Rennie MJ have investigated this stuff. The general understanding is that daily protein requirements are somewhere between 0.87 and 1.0 grams per kg per day. When people first start resistance training their protein need is the highest. However, many researchers believe that chronic resistance training actually DECREASES the need for protein since we become more efficient at hanging on to the muscle protein we do have.
If I recall, Mike Rennie said something once about 10g being sufficient to max out the protein synthetic machinery at rest although I think this is a little on the low side because those who were tested were not people with significant muscle mass.
I honestly think that the fast vs slow protein debate is a little bit useless because the effects on between meal consumption would have to do with what you ate at both meals as well as the meal replacement. Frequent protein feedings will probably do the trick without getting too tied up in the minute details.
Btw, sorry I don’t have better references, I just got a new laptop and all of my papers have yet to be transferred. 
| Mon April 26, 2010 
I’ve heard about the needs decreasing, but I’ve also heard a lot of critique against this view. Some say the training wasn’t that hard, etc. I don’t doubt that resistance training can decrease how much protein we need, but I don’t know about how much protein that is optimal.
If you eat a lot of protein, the body will get less “strict” in how it handles it, while if you reduce your protein intake, the body will become more strict in how it handles it by holding on to every last bit of nitrogen it can. This could be the same for exercise. It increases demand for protein, so if you keep eating the same amount, you will be in a nitrogen deficit for a while before the body adjusts and you will be at balance. But the goal is not to be in balance, but to have as large a positive nitrogen balance as possible.
Too bad nitrogen balance studies aren’t as good as most people think at measuring nitrogen balancmost people think at measuring nitrogen balance.. they usually underestimate nitrogen loss. I think some studies have reported ridiculously high nitrogen balances that would amount to inhuman amounts of muscle being added per week.
And yes, frequent protein feeding would be good. But how frequent can you go before you make your blood AA’s stay elevated constantly and enter into a refractory period?
| Mon April 26, 2010
As far as I can remember, when you eat a large amount of protein your branched chain amino acid dehydrogenase enzyme increases so protein breakdown is upregulated to match intake. If one were to suddenly decrease protein intake there would definitely be a period where breakdown would exceed input.
And truthfully speaking, we go through periods of negative balance and positive balance throughout the day. It is the sum of all these ups and downs that equals our total net balance for a 24 hour period. If you believe the current research on protein balance it would suggest that it matters less how much total protein you take in and more how frequently and when it comes in such that the protein synthetic machinery is always maxed out. Having a higher nitrogen balance just means having more aminos which could either be used for hypertrophy or just broken down and excreted. The old nitrogen balance method for determining daily requirements is pretty outdated. There are better methods now.
As you said, there is no clear picture on how frequently we have to eat protein and how much at each feed to get the idea result.
At the same time, there are those who are finding that with intermittent fasting you can go 16-18 hours without any food and still get a net positive protein balance for the day. This somewhat flies in the face of what we think we know about protein.
| Mon April 26, 2010
nitrogen balance is the amount of nitrogen consumed - the amount of nitrogen excreted. It accounts for the oxidation of amino acids. If you have a positive balance, that means that nitrogen is staying inside the body as amino acids and thus proteins. So a high protein balance means a lot of new protein in the body, and the only place that can add significant amounts of protein is muscle.
And I agree that protein timing probably is very important. We need to find the amounts that are needed and how frequently they can be consumed to avoid a refractory period.
We often gain muscle during the day and lose it again during the night, which is why so many take casein before bed (to keep MPS elevated far into the night) and some even get up to take a protein shake in the middle of the night (a bit extreme IMO)
Maybe consuming a lot of protein in one meal makes protein synthesis not be higher (ceiling effect) but last much longer than with smaller amounts of protein. However, if eating a lot of protein would result in constantly elevated AA levels in the blood for a long time, one would think the refractory period would set in.. It really is difficult to reconsile the protein pulse feeding effects with what we think we know about protein.
Anoop | Tue April 27, 2010 
The 10 gms was not protein, it is the amount of EAA. This study used around 8.6 gms of EAA. That might come around 4 ounces of beet, chicken and so on. If you express it in Leucine, it’s around 2-3 gms. Egg protein is around 8% luecine.
I think looking at the refractory period of protein, higher protein and less frequent meals seems to be better.The leucine content might have to decrease to re-sensitize those pathway.And if you think about it, if protein synthesis was always elevated, why aren’t people putting on muscle every week? Maybe 4-6 hours spread out than the usual 2-3 hours wold be the best way.
I think the study shows that there is a limit on the rate of protein synthesis. You cannot push in more and expect more to go in. You can only grow muscle so fast you know.
| Tue April 27, 2010
Yeah, I agree on the frequency thing. I also believe that if you were to go for meals every 4 hours, you can put a fast digesting protein in between those meals and not affect the MPS response to the next meal (as shown in one of the studies I referenced) and get an MPS response to the fast digesting protein. We need studies that examine if replacing this fast digesting whey with a regular slow digesting meal will give a different result, though.
Anoop | Tue April 27, 2010
I know most people think that trained individuals need higher protein or something similar. And anecdotal evidence support high protein intake for trained.
But Dr. Joe Klemczewski who is considered to be the nutrition and peaking expert in professional natural bodybuilding circles actually recommends a moderate protein. I think like 1 gm per LBM. So that’s the problem with anecdotal evidence.
And if you put things in perspective, most people gain 90% of their muscle within the first couple of years anyways.
| Tue July 13, 2010 
I don’t get it.
The full MPS cycle starts after workout and lasts at least 24 hours. At the best 72 hours.
In a study they check for MPS after 4 hours ONLY.
And nothing after that.
How critical is higher level of MPS after 4 hours vs. all cycle level?
| Thu July 15, 2010
Well the total area under the protein synthesis - time curve would be what matters most. A study that only checked MPS after 4 hours? That can’t really tell you much about how long it lasts.
| Thu July 29, 2010 
Just read through this after having posted on the forum re: problems with interpreting acute effects studies…seems like Anatoly beat me to it!
Incidentally, there hasn’t been a great deal of discussion of the fact that the study in this article looked at fasted subjects.
As Alan Aragon is always at pains to point out, it’s not much use looking at findings from fasted subjects when almost all weight trainers train in a post-prandial state!
Anoop | Thu July 29, 2010
If individuals were fasted, that only makes the case stronger since the protein synthesis will be much less in non-fasted. So I don’t think that will change the conlusuion.
I had asked Alan about his opinion and he said it was a well designed acute study. His concerns were more in realms of why they used egg protein than whey and one of the speculation in their discussion part about the maximum intake of protein throughout the day which I do agree with him. He also mentioned about the long term effects could only be realized with a long term study which I had written in my conclusion.
And I am guessing they only checked the levels at 4 hrs because they are checking for difference in maximum levels or the peak which can only be evident in a short time period. If you extend it too far, you might miss it.
| Sat January 22, 2011 
Anoop,i think only nitrotech provides quality 24gram proteins,should we go for nitrotech?
| Sat July 02, 2011 
Perhaps we don’t need that much protein to promote muscle protein synthesis. 15 grams of whey protein seems to work quite well.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/141/4/568.short
| Sun August 21, 2011 
Hello… Howmuch protein, fiber, fat n carbs should i take In order to gain weight about 20 kgs.
| Sun October 30, 2011 
so how much proiten shoud we consume in work out day ? and should this iddfer from non work out day?
