I’ve seen some cool results with power plates and bone density. Like standing on them 10 min a day and stuff like that. Which is pretty exciting. Bone adaptations are really fun as we’re starting to understand a bit more about the physiology behind it.
Power Plate: Do Vibration Plates Work?
August 21 2010
Power plates seems to be the latest trend in the fitness indusrty. And there are number of studies done on these vibrating exercising machines. Let’s take a look at what the science say about the power plate.
What is a Power Plate?
Power Plate, one brand of vibration plate, as the name implies uses whole-body vibrations while you perform exercises on the plate.
What are the power plate performance & health claims?
The power plate company claims that power plate helps:
- increase strength & power even in elite athltes
- improve your golf performance
- prevent age-related muscle loss
- increase bone density
- remove toxins and thereby decrease cellulite
Their most marketed claim is the increase in strength and power and how it is used by elite level athletes in the NBA, NFL, and pro golf players. Here is a qoute from their website:
“For serious athletes, workouts on the Power Plate® machines enhance the results of conventional training and explosive strength training, as well as serve athletes and trainers alike to speed recovery and regeneration times. Because of the extensive academic and independent scientific research, professional sports teams throughout the world use Power Plate® machines as part of their strength and conditioning programs.”
So does power plate help in increasing strength and power?
There are number of long term studies which looked at strength, power and speed changes with vibration training. The power plate website quotes number of studies which show significant increase in strength and power. But almost all of these had serious methodological issues as shown below:
- Passive control Group: The control group in the majority of the studies did not exercise. They just sat on their butt. No wonder they saw large improvements in strength and power compared ot the control.
- Improper Control: The studies which concluded that vibration training is as effective as traditional strength training did not normalize intensity. Since the intensity was not normalized, it just could be that the intensity of exercises in both groups were similar and the vibration had nothing to do per se in the improvements.
- Proper control: Now guess what, the studies which employed a proper control where they did similar exercises without vibration saw no statistically significant difference in strength or power.
Looking at all the studies, we can conclude that:
- Strength and power: None or only minor additional effects on muscle strength and jump performance as compared with performing the same exercises without vibration.
- Speed: No improvements in speed is observed.
- Bone density: There is evidence to show it increase bone mineral density.
- Other: There is no evidence to show that it will remove toxins and decrease cellulite or improve your golf performance or prevent age related muscle loss
Can vibration training be harmful?
- OSHA: It is now well established that vibration exposure can cause harmful effects. According to OSHA (Occupational & Safety Hazard Association), long term exposure to vibration can also cause nausea, impaired vision, hyperventilation, and disorders such as White Finger Disease (Raynaud’s Syndrome), Hand-Arm Vibration Syndrome, & Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.
- There is no conclusive evidence to recommended power plate as a replacement or addition to the resistance training to improve performance.
- Besides increase in bone density , there no evidence to support the claims made by power plate.
Anoop | Sun August 22, 2010
Thanks for the comment, Karky.
I think most of the bone density stuff is coming out on postmenopausal women. And they are the ones who need it the most too.
When you do studies like this the ideal control is people doing identical exercise on the power plate with a vibration frequency which is too low to elicit any benefits. The sham control will eliminate variable problems with the placebo effects.
These are freaking expensive and goes from 4k to 10k. these guys surely know how to market.
Yeah. I’ve never seen anything indicating that it’s better than regular strength training, so there’s really not much point in buying them, except maybe for bone density purposes as you can get bone to grow without a lot of loading (not that all old people should avoid loading, but in some cases you might not want them to jump a lot, etc)
And the results with BMD aren’t only in old postmanopeusal women, but younger women as well. You don’t need a lot, either. According to this review: “Is bone formation induced by high-frequency
mechanical signals modulated by muscle activity?” standing on one of those for very short periods of time (it has to be above 2 min) can be beneficial. It seems pretty effective and not very time consuming. Too bad not everyone can have one of those standing around in their house.
I know that the power plate is not that truthful I do believe it increases bone density but not strength but if you want to shake up your strength routine try doing lunges and pushups on them.face66
Anoop | Mon August 23, 2010
Thanks for the comment.
But they have testimonials from chicago bulls, greenbay packers, squash champions, progolf players mark vestergen, clint eastwood, and so forth. So it should work (:-
Check out their website: http://us.powerplate.com/EN/index.aspx
If I was going to spend a few thousand dollars on something that vibrates I’d spend it on a massage chair. Anyone used one? Really cool.
Anoop | Sun August 29, 2010
I have used that chair. It is very relaxing!
This power plates are a big trend in the fitness industry. When they have testimonials from NFL and movie stars, pepple can’t help buy those.
Have you guys seen those twisty “Hawaiian” chairs? They’re even more ridiculous looking.
Gary | Sat September 18, 2010
The cost of a vibrating plate is more like $250 and after a day at work 10 mins just standing on one looking at the view give us a feeling of well being.
Not sure if it does what it says on the tin - But we enjoy it.
Anoop | Sun September 19, 2010
I am talking about “power plates”.There are lot of other vibrating plates brands which sell at different prices.
Glad to hear you are making some use out of it.
I have been going regularly for 20 min 4-5 times a week for the past month and think I feel better for it - not sure now after reading the above.
Why I came across your page is because I have noticed my fingers going white, blue then red again. Looking online it appears to be Reynauds Disease & wondering if the plate was a possible cause, I looked on Google and found your page. Now I am worried that the plate has caused it I have 3 wks left on my course & am wondering if I should continue.
Anoop | Sun February 06, 2011
Thanks for the comment and sorry to hear about it.
I don’t think the vibration plate is worth the risk. The benefits and risks doesn’t tally at all.
Did you go see a doctor? And I would stop using it right now and maybe trash it.
Lloyd Shaw | Sun July 03, 2011
Why would you be using it 20 mins 5 days a week. Responsible commercial studios only allow you to use it once every second day normally ?
What kind of cowboy outfit are you seeing ?
Renee@PersonalFitnessEquipmentblog | Fri August 19, 2011
Interesting to read your article and all the comments. I have heard a lot of good stuff about vibro plates, but I wouldn’t expect it to increase my strength just from standing/sitting on it.
What I would expect is an effect on balance as well as bone density, so like every other piece of exercise equipment it has to be used for the right reasons with proper instructions and together with other workouts.
But thanks for sharing interesting insights.
i work at a power plate gym in florida and i can say that this thing is no joke. In their studies as you have seen are quite obscure and they could have done a better job with execution of the tests. I have been trying to figure out how and why this thing actually works and it doesnt tell you in the text because they dont even know. it decreases the fattening hormone and increases fat burning hormones and voila i cant get above 6 percent body fat. just look at the freaking testimonials. What it really does is tune the harmonics of your cellular structure. If you dont understand anything about vibration ,frequency or energy (quantum mechanics) it will not make sense. thats why only smart old rich people tend to use it. Ive been doing athletic training for the last 8 years and ive been doing the power plate for 2 months and my physique improved faster than anything ive ever seen before.
Anoop | Mon January 23, 2012
The late night TV ads for ab machines have great testimonials too! Hope you bought a few of them too.
hi does the vibro plate still work if you dont do the exersies and just stand on it, will it help you loose weight just by standing on it
Anoop | Sat February 11, 2012
What makes you think that it will help you lose weight by just standing on it?
I had heard about these vibration machines about a year ago from my chiropractor for building bone density and started doing my research on vibration machine reviews online. While it does seem like there are so many cheap knock offs out there I was looking at the Powerplate brand that has a medical device number from the FDA, which means they have proven it does what they say it does, it’s the one my chiropractor uses but it is very expensive (over $9,000!) and I don’t a full blown commercial machine for my house. The more research I did I found that the type of movement is very important; moving in 3 fields, up and down, side to side, and back and forth is what all the positive research pointed to. The frequency range it can go to will make a difference, mine goes up to 50hz same as commercial powerplates! The machines weight is also important especially for balance and strength use, you don’t want it to tip over when leaning back into a deep squat or stretch. I tried out a few different models and brands at my local fitness store which really helped me see the difference in quality. The inexpensive ones were not even close to the sturdiness and quality I was feeling using the one at the Dr.’s office. I found a great machine I am really happy with and after 6 month of using it 4 days a week I am happy to report I am no longer in osteopenia (pre-osteoporosis) and have actually had an measurable increase in bone density! I am buying a vibration machine for my mom now because she has osteoporosis and has been on medicine for a few years now with no benefit (and a bunch of scary side effects). I’ll keep you posted but I could not be more thrilled with the 3G AVT Vibration machine I bought, well worth it! -J’aime
Lloyd Shaw | Sun April 08, 2012
Warning to readers…
Jane / Jaim’e etc…. is a viral marketer for a brand of cheap plastic machines. A bunch of them are bombing the net now with fake ” pleased consumer feedback reports” .
It is in fact a direct copy of a Power Plate, which in itself is a fake machine pushed by dishonest marketers.
So Jane is promoting a copy of a fake. With all the same 3D, do lunges on the machine BS.
A message to 3G AVT….
We will now make sure every post you put up on any forum has this warning behind it. You blew it.
Well my thoughts are very different.
YOu have taken all this time to write this down rather than go and do the research yourself! Therefore I can’t take you seriously at this point.
I have been using Power plate for 8 years and so far I have not had any long term damage you have mentioned. Also it would be great to have a link to OSHA website where I can read about how bad power plate is.
It is always much easier to pin point the bad stuff, isn’t it.
You obviously are not aware of how amazing this piece of equipment is!
I have personally had experienced a 35 year old rehabilitating after stroke starting on a walking stick to walk absolutely perfectly after few months of training. It changed her life. As well as 65 years old man rehabilitating from HIp and Shoulder replacement! He would never go to the gym. Group of 80 - 85 year old people who would never be able to lift a 1 KG dumbell without hurting themselves! Young 25 year old girl - lost 15 kg of pure fat in few months, changed body shape completely! 30 year old having serious problems with back, beign told to don’t exercise upper body at all and builded up strenght to perform any exercise given! Few cases of rehabilitation from injuries, lower back pains, headaches, operations….... You obviously have no idea that that vibration machine you are talking about has changed many people’s life and in much shorter time than a resistance training if you compare time spent exercising.
Well, I think there is always room for improvement so I would compare all researches possible- GOOD AND BAD and try it myself for a while to see what I am talking about and then talk and share with other people!!!
I do love any type of execise - resistance, cardio and Power plate. But I try it myself before I open my mouth!
Lloyd Shaw | Fri February 01, 2013
Power Plate Int is now in admins.
And with most of its equipment now broken or unfix-able….... I bet no-one will take direct responsibility for anyone that has been mislead about Power Plates product.
Yes real machines work well. But fake equipment only hurts Vibration Trainings reputation.
Darrel Clouse | Tue June 11, 2013
I believe that vibratory training is harmful to the body’s organs (brain) and especially the joints / connective tissues. Depending on amplitude & frequency, there is a “ballistic” (or impact energy) effect on bones, joints, connective tissues. Even with lesser amplitude / frequency the vibratory effects on the human body can, and likely are (as indicated by OSHA) the same as vibratory effects on soils, particulate material, commercial concrete structures, elastomers, etc.; WEAR, FRICTION, & PARTICULATE OR STRUCTURAL SETTLING / COMPACTION. “Cellular harmonics?”, I encourage anyone in the profession medical physiology or orthopedics to offer definition and or explanation of beneficial vibratory effects at any cellular level or condition. Vibration is energy, and energy transfer can cause additional resistance to exercise. Additional resistance in exercise can be accomplished in many other safe and explainable manners. Does the NFL, NBA, or any professional sporting league offer official endorsement of this method of training or is endorsement offered by individuals or groups of individuals within these NFL or NBA teams? If so, what credentials of science, medicine, physiology, or even ENGINEERING do these persons or people maintain. Darrel Clouse www.versusfit.com
Lloyd Shaw | Wed June 12, 2013
” I believe that vibratory training is harmful to the body’s organs”
Well thank God this is not a religion and “belief” has nothing to do with it.
I think I will go with the 103 years of practical experience of mechanical vibration therapy. 60 years of clinical data. And 10 years of widespread commercial use with millions of individuals globally with no issues reported.
Old saying aimed at academics with no experience ......
” I know it works in practice, but does it work in theory ?”
Darrel Clouse | Thu June 13, 2013
Mr. Shaw?? I do not play word games therefore I write “I KNOW” instead of “I believe”, for clarification. I have over 30 years of experience participating in football, track, pro boxing, triathlons, road racing bicycles, powerlifting, and MORE BOXING. During these years I have been fortunate enough to have been coached by world class coaches & athletes. I do not know everything, however I do know a bit. I have a great deal of professional expertise regarding vibratory effects & affects on soils, commercial concrete structures, human bodies (live), landfill materials, particulate matter, etc.. The transfer of energy in vibratory manner, regardless of frequency or amplitude causes a “settling” effect on particles large or small. During this “settling” process energy is transferred to each particle or structure in a collision (friction). It has been well proven in real world experience and controlled environments of laboratories that our bones, joints, connective tissues and organs, especially the brain, do not benefit from these collisions or wear. Please explain this law of “cellular harmonics” to me. I know this: one collision of the brain against the skull bone can cause death. This happens on some occasion in the boxing ring. Please explain how MULTIPLE collisions “in harmony” can be beneficial or non-injurious to the brain. How can these vibrations, with the load of only gravity be beneficial for the vertebrate or any joint in the body? Who determines a “beneficial” vibratory frequency and amplitude from one person to the next? How is this comprehensively calculated for the entire skeletal structure from one person to the next? I am no physician. My 75 year old dad was the starting center for the University of Florida Gators Basketball team. Resultant from his play, he is now on his fourth artificial knee fixture, for a total of seven major surgeries all on his left leg. We do know and have known some of the finest orthopedic surgeons in the world. Several of these surgeons had advised my dad not to even subject his knees, natural and artificial, to the loaded (standing) vibration on the deck of the boat caused by the engines. Unfortunately this made sense to me and my dad therefore we no longer have the boat for fishing. Which orthopedic surgeons recommend loaded vibratory treatments for bone joints? Any neurosurgeons recommend vibratory treatment for the brain?
I simply hate to see people,young and old , being advised to execute harmful practices in gyms, athletic training or work environments unnecessarily. OSHA has issued many statements regarding the hazards of vibration in the workplace. Surgeons have advised against loaded vibration on worn knees, ankle and other joints. Medical Examiners have determined that a single or multiple collisions of the brain against the skull bone can cause death. Cellular harmonics? What “conductor” determines the right “harmony”?
No we will stick to the more accurate I ‘believe” statement you made. .
A few points to digest.
(1) I personally wrote the original safety precautions around Vibration Exposure using ISO 2631 guidelines. Which is why the recommendations of 10 minutes every second day broken up into 9 poses is promoted by responsible companies.
The company I was initially hired by (Power Plate) disregarded this safety protocol. So I left , among other ethical concerns I had. .
(2) The thousands of postmortem examinations I have done, and the research done on people like tank drivers ( worst OSH case scenario ) have not shown the damage you mention.
(3) We are bio-mechanical in nature, not purely mechanical.
According to the figures. Jumping off a chair and landing on the ground should snap our legs in two. Catching a medicine ball should break our arms. Swinging in a tree should wreck us .
My advice is to go talk to a zoologist instead of coming up with fanciful engineering ideas not based on mother nature.
Remember, Vibration Training is not magic. Just another form of exercise using eccentric contractions as its base. No different than climbing a tree in a good breeze.
No need to scare monger your way to prove your “ideas”. Just look around. No brain damaged or joint damaged people ????
Note: This is not new. Its been around over a long time. Maybe this Darrel guy is just waking up to it, who knows.
But all his fears were discussed and dismissed years ago. By people smart enough to invent things. Not just comment on invented things.
Darrel Clouse | Thu June 13, 2013
Nonsense. Your advice is “go talk to a zoologist instead of coming up with fanciful engineering ideas not based on mother nature”; “no different than climbing a tree in a good breeze”? Fanciful engineering ideas are not mine. I speak nothing of “cellular harmonics”; these vibratory effects you speak of do not commonly occur in natural environments. Eccentric contractions in a zero gravity environment may indeed be beneficial Mr. Shaw, however I do not know because I have no experience in zero gravity environments. With regard to climbing a tree in a breeze, why would that tree be vibrating with such a frequency and amplitude as a vibratory plate used for “exercise” or particulate compaction? When you find a forest of high frequency vibrating trees, please contact me and perhaps we can open a resort in that thicket of vibrating trees. With other regard to “mother nature”, I specifically provided example of my dad and the observations / comments of several orthopedic surgeons over an approximate 30 year time span. WHO DETERMINES THE PROPER VIBRATORY HARMONICS FOR EACH PERSON’S PHYSIOLOGICAL CONDITION? Please offer specific fact based information. Based on factual information describing the reason of loaded vibratory benefit to the skeletal system and the brain, I COULD become a major proponent of loaded vibratory training / therapy. I have never been a man who has taken advice of “I don’t know why it works, but it just does…” Please refrain from ad hominem. I intend no insult, only sharing my observations based on decades of owning several vibratory equipment distributorships, tens of thousands of training/racing miles on a bicycle, hundreds of rounds in the heavyweight boxing ring, etc. Mr. Shaw, I am a proponent of bodyweight suspension training and I will be the first person to say that suspension training can be hazardous and is NOT intended for everyone. Relax; have a good day. - Darrel Clouse
Critical thinking argument…
Humans have been in contact with mechanical vibration on a daily basis since the invention of the wheel.
Can Vibration Training Damage my brain ( very old article ) ?
Lloyd Shaw | Fri June 14, 2013
You seem to think your point of view is original. It is not. Vibration Training is not new, you are just slow. 10 years behind everyone else be be exact.
You are now just in a long line of trainers who rubbish this technology, which by the way you have every right to do and question something beyond your knowledge base.
My issue is, I have not meet a single trainer yet who will openly admit they were wrong once they “get it” and apologize.
You use gravity in your training, correct ? But do you even know what it is or how it works exactly ( scientists are still trying to figure out how it works )
Or you just happy with the obvious effects it has.
Lloyd Shaw | Fri June 14, 2013
This might help you get it…
Google…. Lloyd Shaw’s PTs guide to Vibration Training
But what do the “academics” say ?
Pubmed study ...
Reason for study…
Whole-body vibration training using single-frequency methods has been reported to improve bone mineral density. However, the intensities ( were thought by some ) to exceed safe levels..
Conclusion to the study…
Vibration Training generates stress level equivalent to the level during walking and stair-climbing. This evidence suggests that VT is safe for prolonged use in subjects with osteoporosis who ambulate independently.
So lets get this straight. It is comparable to walking or stair-climbing. And safer than jogging.
Never mind the FACT it has been commercial available for 10 years in the public domain as a full on exercise tool, including such delicate cases involving MS, MD, Parkinson’s and “at risk of fracture” osteoporosis sufferers.
You would think it would be obvious to anyone doing any homework on this subject there is no cause for actual concern. Outside someone deliberately misusing a vibration platform.
Your points are valid but were brought up and investigated 10 years ago. The people behind these(high quality) products are not idiots and safety was their main concern from day 1.
Scientists are now only discussing how to use the product and the quality of the product - these are the only points left to discuss.
As a registered personal trainer and ex-pharmacist, I was highly skeptical of vibration training at first. I know how to look for evidence of injury. It simply doesn’t exist.
Darrel Clouse | Fri June 14, 2013
Lloyd, my dad, whom I love very much, suffers from Parkinson’s Disease too. Therefore, my dad has bad knees, 7 surgeries with 4 complete artificial knee joints having been implanted in his left leg alone (one at a time, over a 30 year time span), he has had 2 back surgeries resultant from a fall that broke 4 vertebrate, AND dad is 6’6” tall, weighing approximately 240 pounds. Would someone like my dad benefit safely from vibration conditioning? If so, at what vibration frequency and amplitude? Please Lloyd, refrain from taking personal “shots” at me; I am genuinely interested in ANY new practice of therapy that would benefit my dad and many, many other people with Parkinson’s Disease whom I am working with on a group basis in Houston and Austin, Texas. My dad, my 6’9” younger brother, and I have been athletes for a long time and, as I have mentioned, my brother and I have had the good fortune to train with some of the finest coaches and athletes in the world. I have seen cutting edge and “bleeding edge” training methods. Some of the latter literally resulted in a bleeding edge because of injury caused to shoulders during conditioning (one of those guys was former undisputed World Heavyweight Boxing Champion). Regarding vibration effects on the brain and joints alone, is this really a safe practice? My family and I owned many construction machinery distributorships years ago and vibratory inducing equipment was one of many lines that we carried and were regarded as experts in vibratory forces on many materials including the hazards of use by workers. Lloyd, I have some of my clients who employ the use of very expensive vibration plates in their physical conditioning programs for young and collegiate athletes. Day after day I see these young men standing on a “G Force” vibration plate that is operating at amplitude / frequency that LITERALLY causes the kid’s cheeks to vibrate, shake, and “flap”. Then, on top of THAT, these young men will be holding 30 - 60 lb kettle bells OVERHEAD (stationary) while “shake, rattling, and rolling.” I see this and I shudder, shaking my head in disgust. Lloyd, as I have admitted, I KNOW NOTHING OF “CELLULAR HARMONICS”; I do have a very good understanding of induced vibration. Does your method of induced vibration result in breakdown or wear on cartilage of the the knee or any other joints? Is it a safe and suitable practice to hold 80 lbs, or any added weight overhead? Is it safe, suitable, and beneficial to hold additional weight in any manner while standing on a vibration induction plate operating at frequency / amplitude that causes the entire body to VERY VISIBLY vibrate and SHAKE? I truly wish to expand my knowledge of training and rehab methods. I AM NOT a personal trainer for hire. I DO train only a few professional fighters and boxers, hence my earlier, and remaining concern for vibration effects on the brain AND circulatory system within the brain. Lloyd, if my opinions, observations, and experience thus far is wrong, I beg to be corrected and to learn more. YOU hold yourself out to be an expert in this practice of vibration and I believe you are indeed an expert. Like I said, earlier, do not attack me personally. I am NOT attacking you or your credentials, I have only shared my opinions and asked a few questions. I would welcome a phone call from you. I can be reached on my cellphone at 1-832-721-6556. Thanks, and hey….relax. - Darrel Clouse
Darrel Clouse | Fri June 14, 2013
Ok. Let me ask a straightforward and SIMPLE FRICKIN’ question; WHY DOES VIBRATION TRAINING NOT CAUSE NEGATIVE EFFECTS TO JOINTS AND CARTILAGE? I HAVE HAD TO HAVE AN 8 HOUR ORTHOSCOPIC SURGERY ON MY LEFT ELBOW MY DOCTORS SAY WAS AGGRAVATED BY ROAD VIBRATION AND JARRING DURING MY ROAD RACING DAYS AND THE RESULTANT DEBRIS AND TISSUE DAMAGE WAS “FINISHED OFF” WITH MY JABBING OTHER BIG GUYS IN THE BOXING RING. YOU ACT AS THOUGH THIS IS A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU. GOOD GRIEF MAN! GET SOME KLEENEX AND STRAIGHTEN UP! BE PROFESSIONAL AND SMART ENOUGH NOT TO MAKE SORRY EFFORT TO INSULT MY LEVEL OF INTELLECT….I HAVE A SIMPLE MIND; PLEASE OFFER A SIMPLE EXPLANATION WITHOUT EXAMPLES OF CLIMBING FRICKIN’ VIBRATING TREES. HOW MUCH VIBRATION IS SUITABLE / EFFECTIVE FOR ONE PERSON TO THE NEXT? 10 YEARS USE VALIDATES? SURE, WHAT WERE THOSE GOOFY OSCILLATING BELT MACHINES THAT FAT PEOPLE WERE STRAPPING TO THEIR ASSES FOR SO LONG? PASSIVE RESISTANCE TRAINING? I HAVE NOT CALLED ANYONE “IDIOTS” OR ANY OTHER AD HOMINEM. IF YOU CAN’T OR WON’T ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONS, THAT IS WHAT I HAVE FOUND TO BE TYPICAL AMONGST THE “VIBRATION COMMUNITY.” REGARDING THE “OLD ARTICLE” ON EFFECTS TO THE BRAIN, YOU WROTE IT. YOUR STUDIES ARE BASED ON HANDLING CORPSES IN A FUNERAL PARLOR? YOUR COMMENT ABOUT THE “BRAIN SHUTTING DOWN (KNOCKOUT)...” HEY SMART GUY, UNFORTUNATELY WE LOSE AN AVG OF TEN BOXERS / YEAR DUE TO CUMMULATIVE EFFECT OF MANY, MANY BLOWS TO THE BRAIN..NOT A SINGLE HARD PUNCH. INTRACEREBRAL HEMORRHAGE IS MOST OFTEN CAUSED BY MULTIPLE, REPEATED, OR CONSECUTIVE BLOWS TO THE HEAD…..LIKE A HIGH AMPLITUDE “VIBRATION.” I HAVE PERSONALLY KNOWN TWO YOUNG MEN WHO HAVE DIED IN THE RING FROM THIS, YOU WANT TO TALK TO ME ABOUT “FANCIFUL ENGINEERING” AND “MOTHER NATURE”? GO CLIMB ONE OF YOUR TREES IN A BREEZE.
SO MUCH FOR ATTEMPTING A PROFESSIONAL DISCUSSION. HOWEVER, PLEASE, IF NOT FOR ME, FOR THE OTHER READERS, PLEASE ANSWER THE SIMPLE AND STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTIONS. HOW MUCH FREQUENCY / AMPLITUDE IS EFFECTIVE FOR CONDITIONING, NOT HARMFUL TO JOINTS & CARTILAGE, AND WHO / HOW DETERMINES THESE VARIABLES? I AM CERTAIN YOU ARE MUCH MORE POLITE IN PERSON “SIR.” GOOD GRIEF.
Di Heap | Fri June 14, 2013
Lloyd will advise you on what machines might be available to you for your father (Note: he doesn’t sell them).
I’ve had very good results working with a man with Parkinson’s. He had significant muscle wasting from the continual shake, more on one side of his body than the other. He was doing some minor cardio with another trainer who wanted him to use hand weights. I couldn’t see him being able to grip and hold the weight without dropping it so when he came to the studio with his friend (who has Muscular Dystrophy)I started working with him. Because we have machine with vibrating handlebars (check out Vibra-Train) he was able to do an assisted whole body pose (squat on the vibrating linear platform to 110degrees, holding the side vibrating handlebars for support and for arm work). This one pose goes beyond therapy - its a full training pose.Not too much time later, the man was able to follow the full program. Results were improved strength and an obvious improvement in how he walked upright with less shake - despite drugs not well controlled. He’s moved out of area and I can, sadly, guarantee he’s deteriorated, as he did badly when he took a 3 month break previously.
Seeing visible shaking suggests the people you observed are using a pivotal machine or linear machine with uncontrolled vibration - and they haven’t a clue what they are doing with the weights and movement. Typical hulk style stupidity! It is possible to use movement and/or weights with a properly designed program with proper use of the settings of the machine but where I work it’s SAFETY FIRST. We get strength and fitness results in people from top athletes through to those with major disabilities (stroke, MD, wheelchair bound)using a completely static pose program and high energy linear machines. Also using a high speed, high quality, pivotal machine for some people for therapy (set on low speed - just standing on the machine for balance and proprioception. NOTE: Never stand fully upright on a machine at high speed/fq)
Your learning is to check out the categories and types of machines: http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/consumer-guide-and-safety-program/machine-reviews
and programs - see the assisted/physio program here for people with limited mobility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdtbCO6nU5M
I could say so much more. Here’s a very old article I wrote: http://blogcritics.org/vibration-training-foolish-fad-or-the/
Darrel Clouse | Sat June 15, 2013
Shaw, I am NOT a trainer for hire. I DO work on a voluntary basis because of my love of helping people live better and athletes perform better. I began these questions with an observation and opinion. The questions STILL have NOT been answered. Shaw,,,let me make sure I understand, you washed up bodies in a funeral parlor and that makes you a medical examiner? Hmmmmm. I am 52 years old, have had two wives, and several girlfriends HOWEVER! I am no gynecologist. “Thousands of postmortem examinations I have done…”, ok you are a young man who worked in a funeral parlor. What other credentials or experience do you have young man? Darrel Clouse 832-721-6556; www.versusfit.com
Lloyd Shaw | Sat June 15, 2013
Firstly, yes your Father can use vibration therapy as a safe mode of light exercise. Watch this video to explain how ...( and no I do not sell machines )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdtbCO6nU5M ( only 11 minutes, so please watch till the end )
The small Pivotal is running at only 6 hz , 5mm amplitude. When looking at the person, they are just wobbling slightly from side to side.
The big lineal machine at the end of the video runs at 43hz , 1mm amplitude. And produces enough KN to lose no function up to 300kg. (So smooth you can not see the person moving even up really close
Secondly. And I think this is very important to clarify…
What you have witnessed coaches and young athletes do is not Vibration Training. It is instead what happens when someone is given a new idea or tool, and instead of learning another discipline from scratch , just does what they normally do, but on a Vibration Plate.
Vibration Training should in my opinion never be mixed in with other disciplines. A mix mash akin to trying to box and swim at the same time. Really bad idea.
You have every right to be concerned at these random practices. .
Lastly….. I only entered this industry to produce machines for people with severe health issues, my main concern being obesity and the fitness industry / medical fraternities lack of alternatives for larger people. I charge for none of this work.
I still refuse to retail machines after 10 years of practice due to my concern over mis-use of my product. And I think you know fully understand why my concerns are real.
Lloyd Shaw | Sat June 15, 2013
The thousands of PM,s I mentioned was in reference to my study into tank drivers and other people who had succeeded ISO 2631 vibration exposure.
I am ex Navy ( Weapons Electrical Mechanic )so mainly used armed forces data. Mostly Army and Air Force data because they spent the most time looking at Vibration Exposure ( Air forces data more stringent because of the expense of training Pilots )
My original programs were designed around all known issues. Putting safety first. Which is why I didn’t last long as Power Plates Product manager ( 2003 - 2004 ). I simply could not back their “anything goes mentality ”
Lloyd Shaw | Sat June 15, 2013
A point on safety I would like to make for the readers of this discussion..
Studies on older people and children ( in hospitals , US, Australia and Europe ) have been done. If anyone has followed the process of getting this kind of thing past an ethics committee. You would know how hard it is for a physical therapy to get that far.
It is easier to get a dodgy drug tested on humans.
Please note: I also have the opinion most of these academics and researchers are idiots who have no idea what they are doing. But that is another story.
Di Heap | Sat June 15, 2013
Being in a different time zone by some 17 hours approx makes immediate answers to questions unlikely.
Washing bodies in a funeral parlour is very different to being a consultant mortician.
In my opinion life experience counts for more than educational certificates. Of course study is helpful but building on that with real hands-on work proves matters. In the vibration training industry academics have failed us badly by using untested equipment in their studies and the results are then false, regardless of positive or negative. Up till recently most academics have, like some trainers, not bothered to find out how to use the equipment, so results are biased. This is changing and we see some exciting verified study results. Nothing we didn’t know about or expect though and dependant on the machine type and specs being accurate and matched to the test being done and the people involved, eg athletes, elderly, disabilities.
Or, simply put, using the right equipment and the right program gives expected/desired results. Same as any other discipline.
Di Heap | Sat June 15, 2013
You said, ‘Shaw,,,let me make sure I understand, you washed up bodies in a funeral parlor and that makes you a medical examiner?’
I know Mr Shaw will not answer you on this so let me elucidate. Skillfully presenting bodies back to family, working for police, working with police, working for the coroner, taking calls from doctors asking advice about treating the living, and saving life as a result. Rebuilding and preserving human bodies from pieces (accident or violence) so that family can have them back, many going to other countries where they will be displayed and mourned for weeks in some cases. I almost forgot, making a fully natural disinfecting, embalming fluid so that dangerous formaldehyde doesn’t have to be always used.
Mr Shaw uses Biology plus engineering plus a very intense, sharp mind. He has no need of my defence. But I am offended by your statement. I have known Lloyd Shaw for about 6 years now and I manage a Vibration Traning studio. I have seen so many people helped, free of any fee or charge, as well as the results gained by paying customers.
The benefits of vibration training and vibration therapy to me personally have been lifechanging..
Darrel Clouse | Sat June 15, 2013
Blah, blah, blah. The idea that Shaw or anyone else can make a recommendation that my dad or anyone with SEVERE physical damage to leg, vertebrate, and Parkinson’s Disease, “CAN USE VIBRATION THERAPY AS A SAFE MODE OF LIGHT EXERCISE” is irresponsible and outright full of nonsense. Shaw is the “author” in this discussion forum who began throwing the BS and mud via personal attack comments regarding my intelligence, experience, and suspected slow wittedness. Not me; all I did was share an observation / opinion and ask a question. My opinion & question got some people at this “tea party” up in arms. “SHARP MIND”; sure,...I describe a 75 year old man who has had 7 major surgeries on his left leg (Dad’s leg is “opened” during surgery from mid thigh all the way down to his ankle), four surgeries of which were complete fixture and pin replacements, Dad has had two back surgeries resultant from four broken vertebrate, he is 6’6” tall, weighs 240, suffers from Parkinson’s Disease and some guy (medical doctor or NOT) is going to advise “use of vibration therapy safely” over the internet? Ha! Irresponsible and probably arrogant. Thanks, but NO THANKS. We have some of the finest orthopedic, internal medicine, and neurosurgeons treating and advising Dad from Emory University Medical and Baylor College of Medicine.
My original questions regarding safe and or effective amplitude, frequency (hertz), AND ENERGY (lbs. OR kg) have not been answered. If this is such a proven science, offer some factual answers and not insults to my intelligence.
There is a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FORENSIC MEDICAL EXAMINER (M.D.) AND A MORTICIAN.
Di Heap | Sat June 15, 2013
Your questions have not been answered because its not that simple. If you’d done some research yourself you’d know that.
Your questions weren’t even honest - they were designed to show vibration therapy / vibration training in a bad light.
No one has suggested your father do a full on training program on a high energy machine.
For other readers - Simple, sitting on a chair with feet on the edge of a high quality, specific, machine would be my exercise prescription for him in my studio. Later, maybe, some assisted squats - fully supervised. Maybe just the sitting - that alone helps circulation, helps healing, works leg and butt muscles from the outside in, can prevent or slown down atrophy. Working with his medical specialists knowing, of course.
You are an idiot, sir. If you think you can take on this industry, to make it look like a scam or a money making con, you are as pointed out previously, very slow on the uptake. And to expect someone to make a call from New Zealand to US to explain these things to you, why? You do the calling, you do the work yourself! To pretend it was to help your father? You would be chasing up every avenue, not trying to make argument online.
By engaging in this forum you have allowed us to promote safe, controlled use of vibration technology and to once again, take a stand against what I called, typical hulk mentality - jumping around performing aerobic exercises on vibration platforms, rather than learning to use the equipment correctly. Thankfully most of the equipment available in US at present is lower energy and unlikely to cause long term damage if used outside of safe poses.
Take a trip to New Zealand, sometime .I can promise you a workout, in 15 minutes, that will leave you crying, and alongside that, show and explain to you safe use of machines for therapy. Oh and,although you probably already know, I’m female, of similar age to you, so I would never do exercise that would risk my joints or good health.
Lloyd Shaw | Sun June 16, 2013
So lets crunch the numbers. Just to see how much brain damage, joint damage and other such issues we should see in a healthy individual like the boxers you mention.
And then compare real world results.
I started Vibration Training in 2003 ( gave up all other forms of training in 2006 for a personal experiment simply because I could not separate the results I was getting from my sprinting and weights )
Machines run at a Fq of 43 hz = 2580 vibration per minute.
10 minute program = 25, 800 vibrations per program
Every second day = 182 day a year x 25,800 = 4,695,600
10 years of it = 46,956,000
47 million punches to my body ( the description Darrel chooses to use to describe Vibration Training )
I have no current injuries at 45, weight 70 kg. which is a far cry from my sore knees, back spasms and lovely grinding noise my shoulder used to make at 35 ( 85kg ). I can now work over the mortuary table on obesity cases for hours and not have to eat anti-inflammatory drugs and Tramadol the next day.
But go figure…..I should be dead, brain damaged or crippled right ?
As for the people I let use my equipment for free. At risk populations who would show deterioration very quickly if I was being “dangerous” ... MS, MD , Stroke ...... etc.. none of the things you mention.
1 + 1 + 1 = ?
As for your Fathers situation…..
Yea throwing a whole bunch of other stuff in there to make me sound reckless is a low tactic. And trust me comes across as desperate to the reader. I have had people in after very bad car accidents that make your Dad sound fit as a fiddle. I have people in that cant even stand, and never will. Never hurt anyone yet. Because the protocols and tools are so wide ranging they go from something that can sit in your lap, to what you saw in the video.
But yes. Some people are told no they can not do it.
Now to this statement…
There is a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FORENSIC MEDICAL EXAMINER (M.D.) AND A MORTICIAN.
Yes. Forensic Examiners don’t usually invest time in saving peoples lives. The dead do not complain anywhere near as much.
Lloyd Shaw | Sun June 16, 2013
Can I ask you a more pointed question.
With all your experience and knowledge. Which according to you is far superior to mine. Who can you help when they are basically disabled due to size or injury.
I can help someone after a recent heart OP, over 200 kg and missing a leg due to septicemia. Can you ?
And by help, I mean I designed and built the machines from scratch that can do that. Especially for someone in that position.
” all I did was share an observation “
No you did not. You disrespected years of hard work based on your jock mentality. A mentality I have only seen help already very healthy people, get healthier. All the while hoping someone infinitely more open minded than you comes along to save you and your loved ones life when all your advice fails.
Darrel Clouse | Sun June 16, 2013
Yes; sure, I will cry. You folks read the darn discussion thread. I posted an observation and an opinion, then asked a specific question: vibration at what frequency, amplitude, and energy? No answers. It isn’t simple? Yes it is. Vibration is VERY measurable AND VERY CONTROLLABLE. Why all the HI-TECH, PSEUDOSCIENCE? Just answer the darn question. I do not plan to go to New Zealand. David Tua is washed up and there is no one over there who could handle me at 52 years old in a boxing ring in New Zealand. Why all the name calling? Like I wrote earlier….people ARE INDEED MORE POLITE IN PERSON. “Taking on an industry…”, PUH-LEEEEEZE, what the United Vibratory Coalition Peoples Front?? Ha! Enjoy your vibrations. Done. Have a nice day.
Lloyd Shaw | Mon June 17, 2013
” vibration at what frequency, amplitude, and energy? No answers ‘
That is like walking onto a car yard , and asking how fast a car goes, but refusing to name the make and model of the car. Then getting angry when no-one can answer you. Really. ???.
The whole thing goes against all logic and reasoning and certainly basic engineering comprehension. So unfortunately because I only have those 3 things to work with, I can not even fathom what you are on about.
Note: Even in the category I design ( and there are 6 basic categories ) , I have built 10 models. All with a wide variety of specs.
” Just answer the darn question” ..... Yea sure. When you actually ask one that makes sense. Common sense that is.
Darrel Clouse | Sat June 29, 2013
Mr. Shaw,...I witness young men ages 13-21 years, being trained by “professional trainers” who instruct these kids to stand on a G-Force vibration plate that is vibrating the kid’s entire body, so much that the skin around their faces is being jarred (vibrated) about. These kids, young men, are also subjected to doing weighted squats, 30, 40, 50 lb overhead dumb bell presses, statically hold 40 - 50 lb dumb bells overhead while standing on the vibratory plate, dumb bell 40-50 lb bicep curls, etc.. This is the reason for my concern regarding vibratory training. Is what I have just described to you safe & effective or is this a risky training method that has a low or high probability of causing injury? I have asked questions regarding this type of “training” method locally and I am told things about “cellular harmonics, muscular momentum & velocity.” Your professional opinion is appreciated.
Lloyd Shaw | Tue July 02, 2013
What you are describing is similar to what we see at “CrossFit” gyms all over the world. Undisciplined, uneducated instructors trying to appear relevant.
In our industry we call this the Power Plate effect ( a company that is famous for its anything goes mentality )
Those “professional trainers” will continue to do it until they destroy those young men, and the idea of Vibration Training along with it ( and similarly CrossFit ) . Then move on to the ” next big thing” and the next group of young athletes to experiment on.
You can quote me on that..
Note; They might get some short term gains in strength and speed. But the long term effects of such random use on the joints and their backs will be permanent.
If anyone challenges you on this, just ask these “experts” what kind of G-Forces the plates are putting out. If for example they say 4 G. Then look at what the athletes are lifting, times it by 4 , and that is the weight they are throwing around in an uncontrolled manner.
Sounds safe, NO, Looks safe NO. = Not professional
“cellular harmonics ” Marketing BS .
Darrel Clouse | Tue July 02, 2013
Thank you Loyd. I witness over one hundred teenage boys executing a “training” regimen EACH DAY as I described in my prior post. The “professional EXPERT” does not supervise these kids, and there is even more foolish activity these kids are subjected to based on the “expert strength & conditioning coach” high tech / modern program. Loyd…I hope that you didn’t take anything personally, but…I guess my previous comments and questions drifted in that direction. I have simply been trying to search out the experts from the impostors. There are a lot of “professionals” in fitness & performance today based on a certificate, or catalog of certificates on a wall. You certainly do not fall into that category. Thank you Loyd Shaw.
- Darrel Clouse
Lloyd Shaw | Wed July 03, 2013
I do not know how proactive / confrontational you are as a person. But you seem quite passionate. Passionate enough to step on some toes ?
I personally live by this rule…..
The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept.
Lloyd Shaw | Wed July 03, 2013
Maybe you rock up to these young athletes and say….
I have personally been in contact with the guy who designs and builds large vibration platforms. You need to hear what he has to say about what your “trainer” is teaching.
Darrel Clouse | Fri July 05, 2013
Lloyd your “rule” is RIGHT ON TARGET. I agree and I have shared your keen comments with a few. Do I have your permission to post your comment with your name and credentials on my versusfit.com facebook? This will reach many, especially locally, and cause people (parents) to ask me good questions. These kids are also subjected to stepping onto “SPEEDING TREADMILLS”, I mean these treadmill belts are running at SPRINTER SPEED and these kids are instructed to “hit the belt running”! I witnessed a kid get thrown off last Friday. Thanks Lloyd. - Darrel Clouse
Lloyd Shaw | Sat July 06, 2013
Darrel… Yes you can.
All power to your endeavors.
Darrel Clouse | Sat July 06, 2013
Lloyd, unfortunately yes..“to step on some toes”, I am a converted southpaw due to the elbow surgery! Thank you for your permission.
Very interesting. My husband & I went to buy a rowing machine the other day and the salesman who helped us was very nice. He finished our transaction and went in back to get our rower. Then a second salesman came up to my husband and started talking about the Power Plate. He was really giving us the hard sell and even asked me to get up on it.
I had gotten on an abcoaster and did a few reps, after which my back felt pretty good. I was in a head on collision last year and still have a lot of pain. So salesman 2 told me this PP would help my back.
I got on it and he turned it on. The first thing that I felt was extreme jarring of my head and eyes. He told me to roll up on the balls of my feet and that would stop. Afterwards, I got a headache and my vision was a little out of focus for awhile.
Di Heap/VibePlus | Wed August 14, 2013
Theresa, are you saying the salesman got you to stand upright on the PowerPlate
Supervised therapy and training is probably okay for you (you’d need a proper assessment, not a commission based sales-person)
Can you give us more details please? Was it definitely a PowerPlate brand-name machine? And what store? I’m not in U.S. but I’m so concerned about this I’ll email the store.
Never, ever, stand fully upright on a lineal vibration machine - you must always be in a squat or other safety position.
Note: there are other type machines that have a pivotal/teeter-totter motion from side to side. Only on these machines can you stand upright and only then at very slow speeds of around 6Hz. Anything higher and you must squat.
Lloyd Shaw | Wed August 14, 2013
If the salesperson got you to stand upright on the plate. He deserves nothing less than the machine to be dropped on his head.
Standing upright on a *Medium Energy Lineal device is a banned position in all responsible commercial locations. ( Getting you to go up on your toes does not mitigate this factor )
Power Plate unfortunately represent the worst of our industry. A sale at any cost mentality. Sorry for your experience.
Darrel Clouse | Wed August 14, 2013
Lloyd & Di Heap…..PEACE! Theresa,..I am no expert witg regard to proper vibration therapy, however these two people are. Lloyd, fyi,....I did call intoquestion that “professional trainer’s” methods and program. The loon had the nerve to call me at 11:30pm two weeks ago to meet with him in person in middle of the night. No romance,.....just a phony, wishing to run his mouth. I obliged of course. My wife thought I was nuts. I said “Esther! I don’t get invites like this very often!” The guy claims credentials / qualifications from National Strength & Conditioning Assoc, CSCS and Nike SPARQ Master Trainer. I contacted BOTH organizations and neither has ever heard of the clown. I knew something wasn’t right with this phony, but didn’t imagine he was claiming phony credentials. He was and still is doing so. NSCA & Nike SPARQ informed to me they have each sent cease & desist letters. Your input was very helpful in spotting a dangerous “impostor”. Walking by a standard in silence is endorsement by default. I am NOT guilty of that. Thanks.
Wow! Thanks for the responses.
As it turns out we went back to the store today to buy the AbCoaster that I tried the other day. This time I got more information.
The machine was a 3G Cardio AVT 6.0 their website is 3Gcardio.com The salesman who was trying to sell it to us is a paid rep for 3G Cardio, NOT the store itself, which was At Home Fitness. Their salesman Joe was the nice one.
So salesman #2 Pierre Defresne (Pierre@AtHomeFitness.com) told me to stand up on the machine with my knees bent slightly. I’m 52 years old…about 50lbs overweight, 5’11”. (Not sure if any of that matters) I was wearing sandals and we’d been talking about the head on collision I’d been in. He said this thing would fix my back. So I stood on it. Totally upright, with my knees bent slightly and he did tell me to bend my neck so I was sort of looking down.
Then he turned it on. I’m not sure at all what settings he had it on, but I think it was on the ‘scrambled brains’ setting.
Lloyd Shaw | Thu August 15, 2013
The 3G Cardio AVT 6.0 is indeed a Medium Energy Lineal unit ( it is a Power Plate rip off ). On these types of units a full half squat is needed to be held, or nothing at all. And standing on a foam mat would be a standard safety protocol for anyone with any kind of injury.
The machines setting would not really have mattered. The pose was simply not suited to that technology. If the salesperson had a clue or cared, they would have put you on a Pivotal machine.
But seeing as they only sell Lineal. I suppose putting you at risk was better than turning down a sale. Right ?
Ah, he did put down a thin foam matt before he had me stand on it. And the store had a whole section of vibration machines including the PowerPlate, in different sizes and prices.
We’d talked about my car accident before he had me stand on it. I told him that I still have a lot of lower back pain. The docs said it was an inflammed SI joint, but 18 months later, the pain continues to worsen. He said this machine would fix my back, I was leary, but got on anyway. I don’t feel like it hurt my back further though. I just go an immediate headache and some vision disturbance from the strong vibration to my head.
Lloyd Shaw | Fri August 16, 2013
Another unfortunate side effect of cheaper plastic machines, is because they lack power, they increase the amplitude to compensate. Leading to a rough ride.
Real machines are so smooth you can not even see the person moving.
I have been using Vibration Training for over 4 years in my Personal Training Studio.
The training i do now and the results I am getting are from seniors to bodybuilders.
On Parkinson Diesease, the results I am getting with my clients in this area speak for themselves, better than any clinical traditional therapy that they have done in the past.
If you train with correct techinique and posture you should see strength gains faster than traditional training,especially if one combines traditional training with it.
The balance / strength results for seniors are fantastic, and is very user friendly.
Darrel can you tell me anything better for lymp stimulation/ recovery and circulation and flexibility ? I think not especially when combined with floor work.
Darrel Clouse | Mon August 19, 2013
No, I certainly can’t comment on any better program for lymph stimulation/ recovery & circulation and flexibility. I am grateful that you have communicated. My Dad, whom I have written about, has Parkinson’s and he has his fourth complete knee fixture replacement in his left left. Dad has endured 7 major surgeries over the past 40 years on his left leg alone. He had contracted a bacterial infection in the lower leg bone that had spread to his entire leg. Amputation was a likely option 3 months ago, however he responded to a particular antibiotic and was able to keep his leg. Good thing, because Dad is 6’6” and 76 years old. The major problem now is one of very poor circulation due to the blood vessels being subjected to so much trauma over the years. Any suggestions? Do you believe that perhaps he should try proper and professional vibration therapy to enhance his circulation? His doctors at Emory University in Georgia have instructed him to keep his left leg elevated for a total of 6 hours each day to reduce swelling. Can you advise or suggest a program that his doctors may consider? We would be very thankful to say the least. Thank you, - Darrel Clouse, www.versusfit.com
Di Heap/VibePlus | Mon August 19, 2013
Are you from the same company that told the world that lineal vibration training will give you brain damage?
Darrel Clouse | Mon August 19, 2013
Di Heap….who ARE the experts? I trust that you and Lloyd Shaw are indeed experts. Will either of you provide an opinion regarding some level of vibration therapy pertinent to blood circulation and inflammation as I described? Thanks.
Di Heap/VibePlus | Mon August 19, 2013
Darrel, the starting point is an understanding of the different types of vibration machine - 2 main ones are lineal and pivotal and their mode of operation is totally different. Next consideration is the accuracy of the specs of the machine, the energy it’s producing, along with frequency and amplitude - which again is very different on the two main types of machine. It’s like comparing bananas with oranges, they’re both fruit but there the similarity ends. I will link general articles
3 RULES TO REMEMBER
1. Any Vibration does not = Vibration Training
2. Light Vibration = Therapy
3. Heavy Vibration = Training
Let’s start at the beginnning:
Lloyd Shaw’s Logical Guide to Vibration Training
Consumer Guide - Machine Reviews
Vibration Training - Muscle Wasting Conditions:
Vibration Training and Muscle Wasting Conditions
Can Vibration Training Damage my Brain?
Can Vibration Training Damage My Brain
I’m going to add a few comments here - A company that sells pivotal/teeter totter machines for home use placed a whole page on their website saying that using a lineal/upright machine would damage your brain etc. They quoted a very sad old study where monkeys were strapped to vibration machines until they suffered damage or died. The accompanying picture showed a woman with a pained look on her face, her hands holding the sides of her head. Obviously this is not the controlled whole body vibration as used for workouts and/or therapy. It also been suggested that as pneumatic drills and long distance lorry driving may cause damage so does vibration training - again, very different use of the medium - vibration in this instance. It’s essential to note that Vibration Training/Vibration therapy is a controlled use. Also the program used/positions used are specific to the results and the physical condition of the person and the specific type or specific machine.
There’s no way I am going to give you specific details of use on a public forum when I have no idea what machine you are planning to use for yourself or your father. You have only given generalised info about medical conditions.
Here’s a link to general use of machines for people with limited mobility:
Video showing safe use of Vibration Machines for people with Limited Mobility
You will also easily find Vibra-Train produced videos showing Lloyd Shaw’s own workout (advanced) and a very useful one showing Lloyd putting a completely new person through the IVTRB Safety program (filmed in Penang, Malaysia)
More specific instructions can be given, if necessary, by emailing either myself or Lloyd Shaw, stating the actual machine that will be used and the limitations/medical situation of the person who will be using it. I’ve done this for people and then got them to send me video of them following the instructions I’ve given. (There is no $ charge for this).
Lloyd Shaw | Tue August 20, 2013
My advice remains the same as my previous post on Sat June 15,
The seated leg stimulation is the safest form of vibration therapy available. The only time it would not be suitable is with an active infection or blood clot ...
Older articles I have written on the subjects below…
Lloyd Shaw | Tue August 20, 2013
Richie… You have a good High Speed Pivotal machine. Glad you are getting good results with it.
Shame about the marketing techniques to sell the machine though. Right up there with Power Plate.
Seeing as you are the expert on here regarding vibrational plates. Can you please recommend which brand or company to buy a vibrational plate specifically for weight loss?
I am based in Australia but willing to buy a machine from the U.S. and have it shipped over.
Di Heap/VibePlus | Thu October 03, 2013
Lloyd is very busy with business currently so asked me to reply.
He said you can contact Jon Hyams at Nitrofit (USA). They have ties to import and export machines and will advise you. I haven’t been able to find a contact email but anyone from his company (Nitrofit/ wholebodyvibration.net) can give you his details. Say Lloyd Shaw asked that you speak specifically to Jon and also that you are in Australia. It’s unlikely you will need to import but Jon will advise you.
Be very careful looking at machines available in Australia. Ask questions and be sure of ongoing help (for your use of the machine and any needed maintanence)
You haven’t given many details here (your current health and fitness level, weight, age, any other considerations or other people who will use the machine). Make sure you give this info to Jon and/or any person recommending a machine.
I have been training for six months three times a day with a personal trainer at a Power Plate studio in Florida. I have lost 25 pounds, many inches, and am in the best shape of my life since my early 20s. I am 58 years old and just had my annual physical, and my physician was thrilled with the changes in my overall health! I have to say the key has been working out one on one with the certified trainer who makes sure that I am exercising properly.
Di Heap/VibePlus | Mon October 07, 2013
It’s good that you’ve got great results, Tracy. I congratulate you on that. But for anyone reading this the following are important points
1. Three Times a Day? I hope that’s a typing error as that is not allowed in any studio anywhere in the world. It would be dangerous to your health.
2. Powerplate machines are fake. They have failed every engineering test done on them.
3. A Certified Trainer? There is no transferable certification for vibration training instruction. Instructor training is “in-house”. Your instructor may have been taught to instruct using PowerPlate machines.
You are using a medium energy lineal machine so you can get some good results. In New Zealand people found that limiting/not enough, even for older persons.
I was looking at buying a PowerPlate studio (it was over 5 years ago) but I found the machines, the program, and the overall brand support very lacking. Soon after most N.Z. PowerPlate studios closed their doors or rebranded and the few left all closed over the next few years. Your post sounds like the sort of marketing we used to see in NZ.
Yes, you are correct. It was a TYPO. I train 3 times a WEEK. Also, my trainer is a certified physical trainer, not a certified Power Plate trainer. I am very satisified with the program.
Lloyd Shaw | Tue October 08, 2013
Good to see you are getting some results. If it works for you, just keep doing it.
A few points I would like to add though. The plastic units you are using are worth about $1000 in Asia ( where they are made ).
Make sure the fee you are paying reflects that price.
Eg…. In N.Z. they were trying to charge $80 a session. By putting Made in Holland” stickers on the back and saying they were 20K.
When the consumer found out the truth they walked away. Even though some quite liked the Power Plate instructors. But sad for the poor trainer.
Darrel Clouse / VersusFit | Tue October 08, 2013
Thank you Lloyd Shaw, Di Heep, & Anoop for this very good information and forum.
Have read through this post with interest. I am in the uk. I am not very mobile and in significant pain. I want to try vibration therapy but online research is mind blowing. I understand the differences in the vibrations, hertz importance and know I will neeed an adjustable machine. But, the info does not seem to be part of the bumpf when you read up on various machines?? Confusion ensues!
I have fibromyalgia and extremely low vit d levels, I am awaiting the gp to figure out if MS is likely, as progressive pain and many other MS symptoms for up to 10 yrs now.
Would you pls be able to advise which models would potentially suit my needs? I have found the lack of honest info on sales sites frightening as of course I do not wish to make things any worse for myself.
Physically I have joint pain, lack of strength, tone and range of movement, weight 96kg ht 5’6. Have been unable to walk far for years and when I do anything more than rest, I tend to crash out and sleep. Have fentynal patches to help control pain and have been told to never even attempt normal gym type exercise hence not helping towards long term weight gain.
Thank you so much for any honest advice re models from contributors to this thread only please
NO SALESMAN ANSWERS…!
I have worked out all my life from High School to College athlete and have been through many killer workouts. I can tell you i do not know about all the crude being said about Vibration training. I can tell you if you think you are tuff and in great shape then you need to try a workout on a power plate machine the big ones. They can make you cry in as little as a minute. No not by just standing on it but doing a squat, push ups, or lunges on the machine it will kick your butt. I think it is funny how when people do not have something or even tried it they can talk junk about it. If you have worked out on a real one it will kick your butt and you will have respect for it when you are done even if you have to excuse yourself to go cry in the next room. Yes it is that intense!
Lloyd Shaw | Fri October 25, 2013
Any Low Speed Pivotal machine will do..
Check out our website to clarify what they look like. Brand means nothing on units like these and the marketing/ specs are all fake. So do not pay more that $300. Note: They ALL come with adjustable speeds ).
A Premium Speed unit would just be dangerous and a waste of money.
For you the more important factor will be position / position / position. And yes it will be some hard work involved. But more determination than fitness.
Lloyd Shaw | Fri October 25, 2013
You should try a large steel unit ( even an original Power Plate from Holland would do ). The Power Plates made in Asia are much lighter and made of plastic and quite low powered. Eg… The lightest units running in commercial locations in N.Z. are 2.0. The largest PP is rated by engineers at 0.5.
It is probably why they still make people move around on them.
But a good starting point for newbees to get the idea.
Note: Quite a few other brands have much stronger machines available. You should try one.
I very much appreciate all the valuable advice that you and others have contributed to Anoop’s very helpful site; may I prevail upon you for an opinion for me too ?
I am 76 and 3 years ago I suffered major spinal injury at T12 as a result of a fall. I am now in a wheelchair but can walk ca 150m with crutches and do 500m at 4 kph daily on a treadmill. My problem is weakness and lack of stamina in my legs which I guess is at least partly due to muscle wastage following 4 months in a hospital bed.
I just wondered if you have any experience of vibration therapy for SCI patients and if you feel that acquisition of a basic machine such as you recommended to Sally might help me recover some strength in my legs or whether you feel it would be inadvisable?
Many thanks for any helpful advice you (or others) can offer.
Lloyd Shaw | Mon February 10, 2014
My advice is to buy a Low Speed Pivotal. One with side handle bars. ( Google Crazy Fit to see the style needed. Brand is irrelevant )
(1) It is Pivotal so is spine neutral.
(2) Has side handle bars to take weight off the midsection. Hence not only being safe, but allows you to control how much work you legs do.
Check out this vid
Keep the speed on its lowest setting. Never crank it up or do anything that feels uncontrolled.
Great article! Is there anyway that you could attach some of these studies? I need to show them to some of my clients.
Ryan H - you can easily use Google to find the studies or go to Pub Med or any medical publisher. Usually need to pay to read full study.
What is it you want to show your clients? Did you read the comments here as well as the original article? Do you use Vibration Training or do you have a case against it?
Gunnar Peterson said “Vibration Training is the most innovative training tool in the past decade”
Lloyd Shaw | Fri May 30, 2014
First off. Lots of studies. Lots of fake machines. Lots of fake experts.
You will be wading through a whole lot of BS if you do not know what to look for eg…
A good question that can be answered….
If someone has balance issues. due to ??? , what kind of machine. And in which way should it be used.
A bad question ..... Is Vibration Training good ?
There are 5 basic categories of machines. All designed to do different jobs. These are the engineering terms used ...
1. High Energy Lineal
2. Premium Speed Pivotal
3. Medium Energy Lineal
4. Low Speed Pivotal units .
5. Low Energy/Low amplitude lineal and Low energy/High
The main issue with studies you will find is no clarification on machine type. Sometimes they name a brand. Which is also usually useless ..
eg…. Power Plate did their original studies on Higher Energy Lineal units ( steel ). Great results.
But only sell weaker plastic machines.
This will be a bit off topic compared to discussion above, but is it true that if you use the PP in high speed, it only massages your body and can’t be used for strength?
Lloyd Shaw | Sat June 14, 2014
Right on topic. Which is to help dispel myths told by marketers or fake experts.
I suspect you are taking 50hz here….
No that is not true. And in fact with some of the plastic units. The only way to get enough KN - force out of the machine to increase strength is to wind them up a bit.
What you lose in one area, you pick up in another.
Note: I used only 50hz for 12 months.
I really suggest you read this really short article on this exact subject…
Di Heap/VibePlus | Sun June 15, 2014
Here’s an easier link to the article above as copy and paste on that one doesn’t work
Given there are no citations or counter-studies to the Powerplate work, this “article” is actually and wholly worthless. You are left to conclude that it is nothing more than an ill-informed dire tribe.
Unless the aim is scare-mongering - there are no reports of vibration training [used correctly] causing injury, particularly anything such as HAVS or Pneumatic Hammer Syndrome.
Lloyd Shaw | Fri December 12, 2014
God you are correct.
The scaremongering tactics came about via this process and in this order.
(1) The first work I released in 2003 with my programs covered ISO-2631 Standard Occupation Safety rules as side notes. To show we were well under any kind of harmful limits.
I also had access to Armed Forces test that came in very helpful.
Openly discussing this topic was in my opinion the only ethical thing to do to show people how we were not cowboys. In fact quite the opposite, we ended up over-safe.
(2) Immediately those with a vested interest in rubbishing Vibration Training like personal trainers / Gyms etc.. started cheery picking the reports to tell people it would hurt them.
(3) In an even more strange underhanded move some competing Vibration Training / Physio companies like Hyper-Vibe and Juvant and even Power Plate actually advertised that ONLY their machine was safe. And all others would basically kill you. ( not joking )
HyperVibe said it might melt your brain. Power Plate said it would explode your eyeballs ( no shit. Funniest stuff you ever read )
All desperate marketing BS lies of course. And as you suggested over the last 12 years ALL studies not only showed if was safe for the average person. But is also used as part of Physio programs for stroke victims globally. MS, Muscular Dystrophy, Parkinson’s etc….
So tes it is super safe.
Disclosure. USED means used intelligently. If you are an idiot or following an obviously random program from an Asian factory. Well you could lightly hurt yourself or get a headache. But not much else.
Darrel Clouse | Sat December 13, 2014
Hello Lloyd! I see you are still active in providing good fact based information to seekers of new data. I must say I continue to appreciate and respect the “very candid” dialogue you and I had approx 1 1/2 yrs ago! Follow up report
: my dad’s left knee is no longer a problem. In fact, dad’s leg isn’t as long anymore either. Surgeon amputated dad’s leg just above his knee last February 4th. Parkinson’s and a prosthetic leg (a really strong knee joint now); VERY new challenges to say the least. Any suggestions you may offer are truly appreciated. You are a good man whom is well studied in your area of expertise. Thanks and Merry Christmas.
- Darrel Clouse
Lloyd Shaw | Sat December 13, 2014
He can use his prosthetic leg on a machine with side handle bars. A slow Pivotal would be best. ( very cheap unit like a Crazy Fit )
But because of his size you would need to build a better set of handle bars than they usually come with. ( too low and not sold enough )
Maybe even a set that he can rest under his armpits to drop into a semi squat. ( kind of like crutches )
Easy to do if we communicate well.
The machine has some benefits but limited to bone density and circulation in a passive state. The key is to do active exercise on the platform. This is indeed beneficial because you are actually doing resistant exercises. The ideal oscillation is around 30 hertz. The spindle organ in the muscle is fool to thinking that there is a increase G-force. Thus a form of muscle twitch occurs matching the oscillation frequency. Combine this with active exercise thus the benefits.It will enhance the exercise by bringing you to a to quicker muscle exhaustion state. However, the claim of fat loss and numerous other claims are misleading or plainly false.
In conclusion, it can be of benefit for older people and cut down the length of a exercise for anyone but it is no substitution for active exercise by itself. Recommend it as a supplement to an exercise program and healthy eating style.
@Angel, I will not agree with you because just with 15 10-minute long sessions, I lost 4 kilos and build strong abdominal. So with sensible diet, Power Plate helps you lose weight by helping you build muscle instead. At least, that was my experience.
Di Heap | Mon January 26, 2015
Angel Luis Rivera - who are you and what is your experience with Vibration Machines and Vibration Training? You made generalised statements without referencing the type or quality of vibration machine used but as you are commenting on the above article I take it you mean PowerPlate brand machines.
For Vibration Training overall and even on PowerPlate (not a machine I recommend), it is your claims that are misleading.
You could be responsible for preventing needy obese people getting the exact help they need.
A controlled study done through European Association for the Study of Obesity, showed 10.5% fat loss maintained over 1 year, from vibration training using the type and quality of machines you appear to be referencing (medium energy lineal used at 30hz): Effect of Long-Term Whole Body Vibration Training on Visceral Adipose Tissue
Results of the controlled study performed at the Artesis University College and the University of Antwerp in Belgium states: vibration exercise machines may help you lose weight and trim the particularly harmful belly fat from the organs.
As we know, study results use the moderator “may help” and never sound definite. My day by day experience as a fitness professional specialising in vibration training on high force lineal machines; along with the study results, gives me confidence to state
“Vibration Training on high force, lineal or, as, in the study, on medium force, lineal vibration machines is very effective in achieving fat loss”.
Note: dietary help was given to participants. I’m sure we can agree what a person eats affects health and weight and can help make any exercise more effective.
Your Statement that the machine (PowerPlate/Medium force lineal) is limited to bone density and circulation is not strictly correct. If used with a specifically designed training program such as the IVTRB Safety Program fitness benefits are possible.
Your suggested ideal oscillation of 30hz is the lower speed that a linear machine should be set at—it’s not the ideal. This can depend on the machine quality and type. Some can be set higher for optimum training results and user comfort. (Note: on Pivotal type machines fq would be set lower than 30hz).
How much experience do you have with vibration training and its various modes (Lineal - low force, med force, high force, and Pivotal - low speed, high speed, etc)? You say “vibration training is no substitution for active exercise”. I say, it’s simply another form of exercise and, just as other forms of training are best done with quality equipment and a competent instructor, so is vibration training. Home use depends on getting good equipment and good program help - again the same as other forms of training.
You say “The key is to do active exercise on the platform. This is indeed beneficial because you are actually doing resistant exercises.” I challenge you to use a real machine (high-force lineal or even a high-speed pivotal) using the static/no active movement program I linked above (contact me for pivotal program) and then tell us it wasn’t fully doing resistance exercise.
Lloyd Shaw | Mon January 26, 2015
Angel Luis Rivera
Where did you copy and paste that from. And what year. 2005 ?
Yes Fake plastic machines have limited uses. And you can jump around on them to give yourself the illusion you are doing exercise.
But please do not confuse real machines and real Vibration Training with what Power Plate salespeople tell you. They are marketers, not scientists.
The studies are on going. I agreed that the machines being sold for fat loss are exactly the ones I am talking about with minimal results and the machines you refer to are not in the budget of the average person. Diheap is correct I was referring to the pivotal machines.
Every researcher knows that one study is not the gold standard. It has to be repeatable. There are on going studies and the judgment is still out although promising. In reference to Lloyd Shaw. I was taking about the so call plastic machines essentially agreeing that they are ineffective and have limited use. I don’t know if you you know how to read or interpret a paragraph. Diheap was at least educational although I only disagree that more studies need to be done. There are a lot misleading and poorly done studies. Thanks Diheap.
Lloyd Shaw | Wed January 28, 2015
With so many dodgy academics , or idiot researchers still getting grants to test fake machine…... I will not be holding my breath.
Di Heap | Wed January 28, 2015
Correct, one study is not the gold standard and with varying types of vibration and modes of operation (pivotal versus linear) the study is limited to the machine type and quality used. There have been false studies even where the machine has not operated to stated specs, thus affecting outcome (the researcher not checking the equipment before starting).
All the more reason that statements made about Vibration Machines, Vibration Training and Vibration Therapy MUST be quantified - related to the machine type/category that the person is commenting about.
Angel, you say you are referring to pivotal machines - yet the article above is about a particular brand of linear machines, PowerPlate.
Academic Studies do not back up the claims made by that specific brand and although I am very anti that brand (for too many reasons to say here) the conclusions of the article writer, their recommendations and their laughable Danger warning (OSHA states long term exposure dangers whereas training is controlled, short time exposure) are not in line with my day by day experience (admittedly using a higher quality, higher spec machine). Even if using the PowerPlate brand I’d say fitness results are achievable using a program designed for vibration training, not just anything dreamed up by a gym instructor, coach or researcher.
Pivotal Machines mode of movement is different to the PowerPlate brand. In my studio we use pivotal machines for therapy clients, for gentle whole body stimulation, circulation, stress reduction, and much more. A wheelchair bound client gets benefits including greatly reduced swelling in lower legs, much reduced pain in legs, alert mind, improved urination. No academic study can measure these very real yet anecdotal results!
Depending on the category and quality a pivotal machine can give fitness benefits, I’d say even fat loss if used correctly.. but beware the “as-seen-on-tv” brands, of course these are more hype than reality.
Angel, please note - Pivotal machines do not have an ideal oscillation around 30 hertz. You seem confused - if your comment was, as you’ve now said, about pivotals.
In short - for those who think I talk too much - do not dismiss vibration training as an adjunct or alternative to regular fitness training. Try it - often that first try out is free. For people who cannot do mainstream training or choose not to spend hours in the gym, vibration training in a specialised studio or part of a gym is an excellent option, but your instructor must know how to use the machine to full benefit (it is not just regular exercise on a moving machine).
Walter. | Thu January 29, 2015
Wow, firstly you have based your information very narrowly around a picture of the company Power Plate, a company who have gone broke in many countries and made others bankrupt. A company that decided to make cheaper aluminium / plastic FBV machines. Although they may be have designed some higher quality machines recently, having a background of testing turkeys on their machines instead of humans and making machines in China cheap says a lot.
Vibration Training Harmful ? bahahaha, well after 12 years of use, Im still very much alive, you say impaired eyesight, I know someone who has now improved eyesight after years of use. Bone Muscle Density Improvement-of course thats why NASA and the Cosmonauts used it. Why has my lower back sciatic nerve pain disappeared after 3 months ??
I suggest you find more research on FBV and I also suggest using the right machine that suits the bio mechanics of the human body…..